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Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 14:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
The value of ISK is basically determined by the amount of wares available on the market and the amount of isk available for market transactions. PLEX themselves don't really add anything to the market or take anything form it per se. One player gets ISK for it, another player pays with the ISK he made somehow... a zero sum game.
However, there might be a SMALL effect since PLEX is sold by players who want ISK to use on the market. The buyers usually have plenty of ISK and would likely not use them to buy anything on the market anytime soon. So, it might be argued that PLEX in fact makes ISK available on the market that would be rotting on some over-filled account otherwise.
However, I think that other things contribute a good bit more to devaluation like the good payouts found in incursions which are ISK fountains, but without (usually) supplying a similar level of wares in loot (or is anybody looting incursions, really?). Hence, it's a sizeable increase in ISK without the proper representation in available wares. The ISK / wares coefficient rises and so do prices...
Solution: introduce more isk sinks or cut down on the existing faucets (maybe balancing npc bounties ever so slightly every now and then to keep prices constant). |
Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 15:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tippia wrote:That means it devalues time, not ISK.
Hm.... with the PLEX price development, it would appear it's currently INCREASING the isk value of time, wouldn't it? |
Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 15:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
But it's the introduction of real money to buy directly PLEX (that its directly ISK) that takes the concept of player driven economy away. I know that we have Bots, Moons, etc etc that make a lot of passive ISK but now those players have a way of cleaning that ISK away and pass it to someone that in some terms don't deserve it (both don't deserve it anyway..)
You always buy PLEX from another player. So how is that not player driven economy?
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Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 15:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:
One of the main reasons for this situation is CCP turning a blind eye to large botting alliances. Ratters in null and mining bots everywhere. All this excess ISK is then RMTed by CCP as GTC/Plex and becomes essentially worthless. You can bust your balls mining for a T1 cruiser or buy a character and a super carrier to go with it via CCP approved RMT. I can't blame people for doing this, but I can blame CCP for making it easy.
Have to differentiate:
- Ratting CREATES isk, hence serves to devaluate ISK
- Bot Mining CREATES wares, hence increases the value of ISK again
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Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
4
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Posted - 2011.10.25 15:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
flakeys wrote:More like decreases the value of ore/minerals .
Decreasing value of ores and minerals leads to decreasing price of wares in general. Hence every ISK is worth more. |
Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 15:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mirime Nolwe wrote:Because PLEX it's not one item constructed with materials found inside the game, like any other one that we have? it's just one item introduced from outside to move ISK from hands to hands.
Yes. It's just a tool to trade ISK vs game time between players. It's not constructed from materials within game, and it turns into dust the moment it's used. So, nothing is created, nothing is lost. Think of two players A and B:
A --- "rich" player --- 1000 mil ISK
B --- "poor" player --- 100 mil ISK
total: 1100 mil ISK
Now... B wants to be richer, buys some GTC and turns them into PLEX
A --- 1000 mil ISK
B --- 100 mil ISK + PLEX
B sells the PLEX to A
A --- 600 mil ISK + PLEX
B --- 500 mil ISK
And A turns in the plex
A --- 600 mil ISK
B --- 500 mil ISK
total: 1100 mil ISK
So, after the transaction, no trace of any item is even left in the game. The same amount of isk in game. The same amount of wares. No influence on values.
Mr Epeen wrote:Bot mining devalues minerals making them cheaper. A major contributing factor to the current situation, IMO. Mr Epeen 
Cheaper minerals, as mentioned above, means more ISK value. You get more minerals for your ISK after all, don't you? So... what are we complaining about? Devaluation or deflation? |
Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 15:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:Well, other then the market broker fee and sales tax (unless it is a direct trade between players).
Yes, you're right about that. So, in essence, the rather high-volume PLEX speculations that take place in the major tradehubs even serve as an ISK sink 
Mirime Nolwe wrote:But that scenario might change a bit if Player A got the in game money with Boting for example, anyway, that's not what this thread is about and some answer already stated that Plex don't create inflation in the game.
I very much agree. But that's the problem of botting. As a side node, even the typical farming can easily tend to create inflation by using human bots. At least as long as they don't salvage, since that would create at least some value in wares to counter the value in ISK.
Hence a petition to all botters and farmers: PLEASE do also salvage and loot, help keep our ISK stable ;) |
Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 15:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:If PLEX were not in the game, and assuming RMT was not there either, then moving ISK (time/effort) around the game would not be as fast or as easy. Since it is easier to move ISK around using PLEX, the existing ISK can be rotated on and off the market much faster than would otherwise be possible. This can certainly have an impact on prices and the overall availability of liquidity in the game. Instead of the ISK sitting around in wallets, some of it is out and doing things.
From a static non-temporal view, PLEX does not change the value of PLEX one bit, no new ISK is added. In fact, some is removed in the form of the NPC taxes and fees. From a non-temporal point of view, PLEX is actually deflationary. However, From a temporal evaluation, PLEX may very well be inflationary. How it manifests is anyone's guess, though I suspect this is not exactly what the OP meant, or if it did, it didn't make it clear.
Well said. Yes, PLEX can serve to increase the LIQUIDITY of the market, and hence lead to increased prices.
On another note, labelling the PLEX as "teh ebil" and shutting down the PLEX market could lead to a strong decrease of this liquidity and thus lead to deflation, which could bring all of EVE into a recession like state. Producers are far less likely to produce when prices are falling, and round the economic wheel goes the other way around.
So, yes. Liquidity increases prices, but is also an economic motor as long as it doesn't turn into a bubble (which we've had enough of in RL recently). |
Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 11:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I'm trying to wrap my head around this. On the surface what you say makes sense. Does that mean mining bots are good for EVE? I can't believe that. Let me work through this and see what I can write. It's screwing the economy. I just need to figure out how to tie it all together in a coherent post that makes some sense. Mr Epeen
I'm almost as shocked as you, I think, realizing just that. That mining bots do have a profound effect on the EVE economy and are currently having their share in keeping prices stable. Before any flames roll in, I'm as much as a hater of bots as most players.
But we have to face the fact that bot miners are in fact actively increasing the amount of material values in the game by creating ore supply for the market. (So are drone region ratters that salvage, as a short sidenote). If the extent of bot mining is as high as I fear it might be, then the effect of shutting down all bot operation might have DRASTIC impact on economy and tip the balance quite heavily towards an inflation, since the amount of material values would not be able to keep up with the increase of ISK in the game.
Maybe that is an incentive for CCP to not go about botters as aggressively as I'm sure they might be able to.
So, ugly as it might sound, the bot miners are a blessing especially for all players that are looking for low prices. On the other hand, bot mining decreases the ISK equivalent value of the total assets every player possesses.
Now... the question is: What's the more "real" measure for values. ISK or assets?
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Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.27 11:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
And once more it shows: Everything has been said. But not by everyone yet. |
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